Partnerships for Profit Ep. 46: Building Quilia (Full Episode)

(upbeat music) - Welcome to Partnerships for Profit, the podcast where we bring you inside the world of joint ventures, strategic partnerships, and powerful collaboration. Each episode, you'll dive into conversations with top entrepreneurs, visionaries, and business leaders, unlocking the secrets to building profitable relationships that drive growth and success. Whether you're looking to expand your network, find new referral partners, or scale your business, you're in the right place. Let's get started. - Welcome to Partnerships for Profit, presented by Laduke Entertainment. Today, we are joined by Kenny Eliason, the CEO and founder of Quilia, Kenny. Welcome to the show. - Hey, what up, Adrian? How you doing, man? - I'm doing great. Can you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and a little bit about Quilia? - Oh, man. A little bit about me, a little bit about Quilia. How much time you got? So a little bit about me is I'm a born and raised Vegas kid. Been here my whole life, believe it or not. You can actually live in this town. And I love it here. I worked for a personal injury law firm for almost 10 years, and then I went to law school for one year, and then I got out and went and did tech for a decade after that. And then my two career paths come back together to create what's now called Quilia, which is a tool for the clients of personal injury attorneys, the app installs on the client's phone, and we help the clients do everything that they're supposed to do throughout the life of a case from signature to disbursement. - So the people that you're helping in kind of targeting with this app, what are some of the problems that they are facing, that you're helping them solve? - Oh man, so when I worked at the personal injury firm, it was, I mean, it was super interesting to me. How much of a personal injury case is repetitive? There's still a lot that is not, I mean, and ultimately my favorite part about handling cases back in the day was actually the people. And often the process got in the way of building those relationships a lot. And so what we've built is not a people replacer. It is a process replacer. And so there are just so many things that have to happen in a firm, or in a case that the firm usually has to manage, calls, follow-ups, making sure they go to an appointment, making sure they get that prescription or that they get the car fixed. All those things that happen on every single case can be automated to an extent. And so what we've done is built it in a way for the clients to just get notifications and updates, so they can do all that by themselves, so. - And what inspired you to build this out, to build out this platform? - So that's a bit of a loaded question, right? - My favorite question. So I owned a development agency all the way up through from 2011 and then we built 2011 through 2022, I think. We built a ton of cool stuff. And so I got really familiar with building apps and websites and running marketing campaigns. I call it my startup school, 'cause I worked for so many different businesses over that decade that I learned forward and backwards how business works. And then it's like 2021, I think. And my previous attorney boss hits me up and says, hey, we're thinking about building some tech here at the firm and we were wondering if you were interested. And I was interested. And that kicked off almost a year of research. And so I spent, I called, I text, I emailed about a hundred different attorneys that sat down and met with me. And I interviewed them without knowing what I was going to build at that point. I was just doing some good old fashioned research and I was saying, hey, why don't you tell me about, tell me about your day. What are you doing every day? What are you listening to on the drive in? You know, just trying to get an idea of what these attorneys' lives were like. And over the course of those almost a hundred interviews, I started seeing some patterns. I came up with some ideas. I've blogged a lot about the ideas that we had. We had seven different ideas, six different ideas. And it was torturous for that whole time because I kept getting these cool ideas. I think, man, we can solve that problem and I come with a solution. And then it wouldn't be viable for a number of different reasons. And so I had to pivot six times. And it was rough. It was not fun being told you're baby's ugly. Let me tell you, especially six times. I was kind of at the end of my idea chain, but I was still going through the motions as like, you know what? There is something here that I can help with. There is something that I can fix. And I was doing another interview with another attorney. And that attorney offered up and he said, hey, let me tell you about my favorite client. All right, tell me about your favorite client. And he said, then this guy, he went to every appointment, never missed a appointment. Called very little, but texted us often and told us what was going on, but didn't require text back. And then at the end of the case after he got released, he showed up with a spreadsheet of every appointment that he'd ever been to. All penciled out with how much each bill was, you know, it was fantastic. He's like, I basically just printed that off and sent it into the insurance company and settled the case. - Wow. - And well, that's fantastic, right? Wouldn't it be nice if every client were that great? And then I said to him, well, that's cool, but tell me about your least favorite client. - Right. - And he kind of did a, oh, lots of those. They don't go to appointments. They disappear for weeks at a time. They call too little or they call too much. They are always needing help. They never have the answers, on and on and on. And when he was explaining his least favorite clients, you know, I remember that's a typical client lots of times that you just have to hand hold a lot. And so the idea started coming around like, what could we do to make more clients like that great client and enable those great clients that are already out there that maybe don't know how to make a spreadsheet or something to become really great clients. Kind of a catalyst. We started down that road. That kind of made the picture for you of where we were at when we were coming up with the idea. - Right, right. And I'd like to talk a little bit about those multiple pivots, right? And you mentioned those multiple pivots. And I was wondering if you could kind of discuss some of the challenges that came along with those multiple pivoting points and kind of what the benefit of adaptability was during that time. - That's a great question because one of the, one of my mentors when I started this whole thing really pushed the idea of solving real problems, right? Like there's so many good ideas out there. There's so many good ideas out there. And, but a lot of them don't pass muster for whatever reason. There's lots of reasons. And so we started down this track and we were like, okay, the only time we're gonna write a line of code or build a single piece of our product is if our customers are hammering that this is the one they want that they're ready to cut a check right in that moment when I tell them what the idea is. And so with that knowledge and going into this research project, I would go to these meetings. I would say, hey, I got this really cool idea. This is 2021 pre chat GBT and AI stuff, being in tech for forever. We always, we called it machine learning. We had AI, we did all that kind of stuff. And so one of my very first ideas was a settlement predictor tool. It's like, so I go into these firms and this will give you a good idea on the feedback and why some of the ideas didn't work, which was a surprise to me. I go into these firm or these attorneys and I say, hey, check this out. With like 10 basic pieces of information, I can predict how much your settlement is gonna be. Check it out. If you build any code, it was just like a whimsy prototype kind of a thing. And they go through it, they, oh, that's dope. That's cool, I can see that, yeah, that works. That's about how much that case settled for, cool. That's a really cool tool. And then I'd ask, well, you pay, good news. I think that's how I'd say it. It's a good news. We're doing a pre-launch and right now you can get it for cheaper than anybody's ever gonna get it. Are you willing to cut a check for $1,000 today to use this tool? And that's where they'd go. I don't know, maybe, and then the real truth would come out. And for tools like that, one of the prominent feedbacks we got on that tool was, yeah, but that's my job. Like the attorneys kind of looked at it like, if you take away my ability to negotiate or my ability to predict the outcomes of cases, then what's my use? And so it's not that the tool didn't work. It's not that we wouldn't have been able to accurately predict the outcomes of the cases. So that the people who I was selling to wouldn't have bought it because they didn't want their jobs to be replaced. - Right. - So pivot, you know, come up with a new idea 'cause they're not gonna pay for it. So that happened a lot of times in different ways, but yeah, that was kind of the- - Well, and you mentioned some of the feedback that you received from the ideas that, you know, didn't go forward, but could you share with us, what are some of the feedback that you've been getting back from law firm owners that have been implementing Quilia and using Quilia? - So I'll actually start with the very first guess I got, which was a pivotal moment because finally, I did the same presentation to everybody. And finally, with this idea, I sat down at a lunch with a guy. I paid for a lot of lunches during this research time. I was at lunch, we had our nice little lunch, and then I was like, "Okay, can I show you?" Like, "Sure." So I show him my little napkin prototype thing. And it was at that point where he, without me even prompting him, he said, "Wait, does this work right now? "Can I buy this today?" He was like, "No, not yet, you know, we had to back off." But like, that was the first like, "Yes, this is the idea that solves it." And so going forward now, what we've been seeing in firms is this is the, every time we present it to an attorney who really understands what we're doing, they all kind of go, "Yeah, this is what I've always wanted. "This is the tool I've had in my own brain." It's like, they know how systematic a personal injury firm is. You know, these case managers, they're all very important to keep the, they're important cogs in the machine, they keep the machine going. But they know that a lot of the tasks are repetitive and sick, you learn nature. Like they got to do the same thing, they got to tell them the same thing over and over again. And so when they see ours, it's just this big aha moment. Lots of them say, "Hey, can I lock in my pricing "for forever because I think this is going to be big." You know, like that's the approach we get lots of times when they hear about the idea now. - Yeah, and so you have a background correct in marketing, is that correct? - Yeah, so for the decade after law school, I did a marketing and development agency. So yeah, it's been a lot of time in marketing. - And can you tell us, I mean, how does that background in marketing influence what you're doing with Quilia? And influence what you're doing with legal tech in the legal tech space? - So I jokingly called it my startup school. I was doing my marketing agency and it really was this, every time you bring on a new client in an agency environment, if you're doing it right, you got to learn about their cash flows. You got to learn what makes money. You got to learn how to influence that money-making process. And so we would target the things that would return the most money for those clients, whether it was a new website because it wasn't driving sales or just a new marketing campaign that would target a specific thing that sold the best or whatever, you kind of learn all that for every single business. And so now going forward with Quilia, we've used that same thing. It's like, I'm not just going to run a big old ad to everybody that's maybe going to get traction. I'm going to run an ad to something that speaks to the specific problem that they have that we solve. And so our ads are very hyper-focused on some small pieces of our actual overall app because we know that those are the problems that highlight the real need for the attorneys and for their team. - Right. And that obviously makes sense, you've got to niche down and find those people. Now, I'm curious, do you think that Quilia and is Quilia, I guess more so not do you think, but is it like tied to growth in these firms? Are you seeing any kind of growth in these firms as a result of switching their operating procedures to using Quilia? - So we go by three main metrics that we talk about in ourselves process and we track on the backend. The first one is we track how much the data influence, the data the clients are doing influence the outcome of the case. So data in increasing the quality and eventual outcome of the case. And we are seeing that pattern. The more the clients are using the app, they're getting their appointments, but they're giving more of the suffering side of their case of what's actually happening in their lives, that increases the outcome of the case. So volume wise, we're able to increase the current value of the cases in the firm. Second one is we help the case managers have to do less. So we're saving them costs because now instead of one case manager handling whatever the number is in your firm 50, that same case manager can handle maybe 75. And so you can increase your volume because now your staff doesn't have to do as much. And then the third metric is client satisfaction and our clients are much happier using the app than they are without because they feel like they know exactly what's going on throughout the entire life of the case. Different than other tools out there that might update on a phase change, we offer that as well. Our app keeps them in touch the entire time of the case, multiple times per week. And we joke in less than two minutes a day, you could keep your attorney updated and keep your case on track, which is an easy entry point for most people two minutes a day, that's it. And so by increasing client satisfaction, what do we do? We increase volume because happy clients offer more clients. And so it feeds the machine. So as more clients come in, the value of their case is increased. You can do more cases with fewer people and they refer more cases. So there are three main points we push. Now, is Quillius sort of a blanket approach or when you go to a law firm, is it something is the app kind of tailored to each individual business, each individual firm to meet their needs? - Yeah, so the app has white label status to begin with. So as the client logs in, they see the firm's information. It's all there. Once it's beyond that though, it's using different case types. So we have a MedMout case type. We have all the different case types in there. And depending on which case type a client gets assigned, the path is pretty much laid out. It's a lot simpler than most people think it would be. And when we showed demos, I mean, it's pretty obvious, like, oh, okay, simple basics, data entry, like instead of the case manager doing it, the client's doing it because they know it all anyway. And so it's a structured path. We do have the ability for them clients to customize it a little bit. And but we try to keep it pretty uniform. And then it's on us to improve that output every single day, not on the firm, some bigger case management software say, hey, we're super customizable. You can customize it however you want. And then that means the firm has to figure out how to actually customize it. We take that boom on us to say, we're going to figure out how to make your clients use this as much as possible. We're going to figure out the notifications. We're going to figure out the timing. We're going to do all of that so that we increase the value of every one of your cases for you. - And is there, and I don't know about this. I mean, I'm curious, is there any kind of issue regarding like the state that the individual firms are in? Cause I know, you know, law is very state to state. So does the client navigation journey need to be adapted per state? Or are there any kind of conflicts involved in making the app, you know, available everywhere? - Being that you're in Louisiana, I believe, right? - Yes, yes. - Yeah. So you guys are the only state that has civil law. But even with civil law, it is actually not as big of a barrier across state to state. Policies might change. Some nuance to the law might change. But what we've done is we've simplified so much that we're just, we're tracking treatment primarily. That's our big focus. Treatment can exist in whatever format that area of needs our app doesn't care necessarily. It automatically dynamically changes depending on what the clients are putting in. And so no, we don't have too much conflict state to state. Every state, at least in the United States, we have some Canadian firms that are looking into it too. And from what we can tell so far, there's no problem operating in even another country, so. - That's fantastic that you're getting it up into Canada. I mean, how quickly has the growth of quill you've been? Has it been something that's been easily enough? - It feels like an eternity, Adrian. It feels like it's been forever. It has not been that long, though. We've been around as a company for three years. - For three years? - We really didn't start selling. We really didn't start selling seven, eight months ago, now the last summer. - Oh, wow. - And so it's really just been in the past nine, I think we're going on nine months now where we've really started to see a nice uptrend. - Yeah. - Really a lot of the limitations have been me because I was the main sales guy and I'm not a sales guy. And so we've got some good help coming in now that's making that sales pipe even more killer than it has been, so we're excited. - So when you go to a law firm and you're bringing them Quilia, right? What are some of the strategies that you are utilizing that are helping these firms sort of make the transition? 'Cause I imagine there's gotta be a bit of a transitionary period when they first adopt Quilia and it's first to bring it into their platform. - Yeah, great. Another good, you're doing good with these, dude. And we didn't even plan this out. These are really good questions. Good job. So when I was doing these intakes and I was going through, or not intakes, these research interviews and I was asking about these ideas, one of the other problems that came up was the onboarding cost. - Right. - I would have an idea. I'd tell them what it was. I can't remember specifically which one it was, but they were like, man, that sounds great, but holy cow, that's gonna change everything in my firm. I don't think we'd ever fully adopt that. And I heard that loud and cleared. And then I remembered back when I was at the firm, we went through two different case management changes and how big of a, just a hassle and a terrible process that is for a firm, so disruptive. Like the fee you pay to the services, one thing. The fee lost over time of onboarding everybody is a whole different ballpark. So when we built Quilia, we had that in mind. And I wanted it to be something that's just so simple and so easy to use that we could get it on within an hour. And that's what we've done really. So because it's a client tool, we have one onboarding meeting with the firm. Usually it's about a 15 minute to 30 minute meeting depending on the case management software that they're using. We connect it in via the APIs, takes just a second. And really that's the extent because everything the client does, the firm doesn't necessarily need to monitor that, they just show it back inside of their case management software. So they keep doing the same thing they've done every single day without talking to anybody else or setting up anything else. And all of a sudden, all this new data keeps showing up in the firm's case management software. So we try to keep it down. I mean, there's nuance to every integration that we do. Something inevitably needs to be tweaked to make sure it works perfectly. But for the most part, it's a super simple onboarding process. - Well, and you talk about all that data coming in, right? And I'm wondering, can you speak a little bit about the importance to a firm? Why is it important that the firms actually track that data and those metrics? - So we were onboarding a firm a few months ago and the guy was so excited. He was telling us, man, I wish I would have had this six months ago. He was at a, this will paint the picture of how important this stuff is. He was at a mediation and the client, so how mediations work? You sit in a room with your attorney, the mediator comes in and then he leaves and then you're stuck with your attorney for another 20, 30 minutes while they negotiate. And they were in a non-mediator part of it and they're just sitting there small talking. And his client brought her son with him with her. And the son who he hadn't met before said, man, hey, attorney guy, do you realize how bad this was for my mom? And the attorney says, yeah, of course. I mean, I remember it was really, really tough. And now, you know, mediations happen years, usually years later after the incident happens. And the son said, no, like for real, I don't think she told you, but at the beginning of the case for like six months, I had to help her use the restroom. She couldn't stand up or sit down by herself. She couldn't even turn around to flush. It was terrible. I had to help her do all of that. And he, the attorney was just like flabbergasted, like, oh my gosh, no, I didn't know that. I didn't know that happened. And he looked over to his client and he said, why didn't you, and they had a good relationship? Why didn't you tell me? And she said, I was embarrassed, you know, like it's embarrassing to have to admit that kind of stuff. And so the stuff we're seeing show up in the app because you're not, right now usually firms are getting information via text or email or in-person meetings, all these traditional ways that we've gotten at forever. And those have a person-to-person connection, which psychologically, you don't wanna tell people embarrassing things, it's weird. It's a hard thing to do. You do it sometimes, but it's not fun. But with a person-to-app, these clients are putting in, they're just so much information. So much behind the scenes of stuff that you just would never ever think of. Let alone, another classic is injury photos. And sometimes, for a lot of car accident victims, there's a lot of seat belt bruising that is really bad. It can be really, really bad on a chest, especially for a female, that's an awkward picture to not only take, but to send to your attorney. Like, I wanna do that. And so what we're seeing is the embarrassing level is next to nothing inside the app. And people are uploading so many more injury photos because it's just sharing it in the case. They don't have to have it on somebody's phone somewhere, which is awkward. It's just going into the case. And so we see a lot more there too. So it's really helped increase the amount of suffering information that you get behind a client or for a client right into the case. Right, and that's something that's really, really interesting that you bring up and that's not something I would have even thought about, that aspect of it. So what I'm wondering is when you were developing Quilia, how did you kind of plan because there's two sides of it, right? There's the software, the technology side of it, but then there's the human side of it. And you have to find that balance where those two things sort of marry and collaborate with each other to create a great product. So I mean, how did you keep in mind when developing the app, the human element of it? And how did you balance that? - So I, back to the earliest days of my law career, my favorite part was the people. And so making, I actually was a Spanish speaking and case manager. And so just to understand the background of how that works in API law, right? Earned PI, the clients would tell me things in Spanish. I would then document everything in English into our case management software. And then the rest of the file was in English, through litigation or whatever, you know, like it was all in English. And I realized at that point, what a critical piece of the puzzle I was and how important it was that I translated correctly because if I did something wrong, then now that whole rest of the case that follows wouldn't be accurate anymore. And so when we were building Quilia, aside from the language component, which is cool, we do have multi-lingual which allows the clients to put it in their first language. Just the idea that giving clients their voice on a case was like the most important driver, allowing them to actually explain what's going on without the embarrassment, the nerves that come with talking to your attorney, the inconvenience that comes with talking to your attorney. They work nine to five and you work nine to five. It's not an easy thing to sync up and tell them everything. The forgetfulness, sometimes you get on that phone call and you just, you had 10 things you wanna tell them and you told them three and forgot to tell them the rest. You know, like there's all these reasons that make it hard for us to communicate the things that we really wanna tell and put in our case. And so every piece of the puzzle that we went through, I even did a bunch of client interviews. So I interviewed attorneys for forever and then I interviewed a bunch of clients and tried to say, you know, would this be something you'd want? Would this be something you'd feel would make your case go better? And it was a resounding yes. And then, I mean, if you look at our website, CRUI, the UI is so easy to use. It can be used by anybody from, you know, 15 to 100. You know, if you can use Facebook, you can use our app. So try to really keep that human element in mind. - Interesting. And this is okay. This is, I'm gonna preface this. This is one of those big loaded questions, right? - Right. (laughs) - Is with the emergence and the rise of AI being, you know, kind of on the forefront and everybody talking about AI now, how do you think AI, or maybe it already is for all I know, how is AI impacting or going to impact the legal tech space? And do you see AI is something that you will eventually incorporate into Quilia? - I have lots of opinions. - Got another 30 minutes to go on about the AI component. First thought is, I mean, I'm a huge AI fan. I use it for everything and I am hooked into all the APIs and we use it to run our operations. We use it all the time. My app doesn't have it built in yet. We have a couple of little small features that use some generative text and other things, but really we aren't using the true power of AI yet. And it's for a couple of reasons. One, I don't want to build another AI tool that just gets swallowed up by the next open AI release. Whatever agent comes down the pipe, it's just gonna make it do the thing that I wanted to do. So I'm not focused on the application layer of AI. I am focused on, which I think our biggest value is the data layer. And so right now, nobody's collecting the information from the clients. That is a very important data layer that is obstructed by communication. The data right now is secondhand entered by a case manager to offer. The more data I can get from the clients themselves, now I can build my own AI, generative or otherwise chat-esque AI on top of that data layer, which will be unique to everything that's out there. So we have a very strong strategy on it. We have lots of cool stuff in the works right now. Most of the app, if not like 99% of the app, is not using AI and it's intentional. And we're hoping to keep drawing at a nice rate right now and eventually build some of that AI tool down the road. - Right. And I think that's really interesting to say because you're right. The things that are, everything's getting swallowed up. We had AI tools and we're using AI tools and we found out that we had to pay for them month to month because we pay for, if you paid any longer than a month, by the time that month was over, there'd be some new program that came along that would do it better. And so it's the very time before these big models end up swallowing up all of the generative side of AI. And so there's a few components that are sideload and the data collection is one of them. Right now they're using the entire internet and this component that we're working on is not actually in there yet. So we're hoping to find a new little data spot there. But yeah, you're right. It changes. Every single day it's changed. - It's saying how fast it's evolving. - Yeah, now you mentioned earlier that you went to law school and I was wondering, I wanted to circle back to that 'cause we didn't touch on it, but I wanted to mention and see and I guess ask, with that experience in law school, how did that experience in law school shape your approach to developing Quilia? - Oh man, so I joke with my friends and family and now you're in that circle, that I took a few early risks in life that most people take and I failed at all of them. I bought a house in 2006 right before the giant crash. I got married and unmarried after six months and I went to law school and got kicked out after a year. And so my big failures are actually what shaped me into who I am right now, right? So my law school component, my law school failure, which was a tremendous learning experience and I wouldn't trade it now. It sucked at the time, but I'm very happy it worked out the way it did was, I don't know, pivotal, maybe pivotal in being here today where we're at. I don't know if I would have ever even gone into tech, had I not gone into law school and failed out. And I have a whole different spill about how I failed out and why my school was jacked and all these other problems, but I'll save that for another message. The main takeaway was I can communicate with lawyers, like to understand from working in a firm, from attending even just one year, but they say that the first year is the worst year. And so if you can go through a first year of law school, then you really kind of understand the second two years. It's just more information after that. I can relate and it becomes a commiserating experience for me and everybody that I'm working with. And so it's not something I'm worried about. It's not something that I'm ashamed by. It's actually something that's made me into who I am right now. And I counted as a strength at this point. - That's absolutely, that's awesome. And I mean, that's great that you were able to pivot, right? 'Cause I mean, you've had to do that with Quilia several times, but it was, again, you know, those pivotal moments. - Stand your toes, man. Stand your toes. - And I was wondering if you could share with us of all the firms that are implementing Quilia using Quilia, is there one, we spoke a little bit about a couple of different case examples, but when you think back, is there one where you really, really saw a transformation in their business as a result of your help and guidance and getting them on Quilia? - Yeah, so it was interesting. One of our initial pilot firms, they adopted the software, they were using it. And then how things go, it kind of got forgotten after a couple months. And we're like, you know, we're prompting them all the time, trying to make sure they're using it and doing all the things. The whole time though, clients were being invited automatically and they were downloading it and they were using it for things. And it was a, it's a custom integration. Anyway, there wasn't a lot of visibility on our site into what was showing up back into their case management software 'cause they actually handled that. They used our API to pull the information back in. And so we were like, look, the invitations are going out. We can see people are putting cool stuff in here. We hope it's helping. And what we found out was that the integration on their side wasn't actually importing everything that it should have been. And that was about, there was about a three month gap where they were kind of thinking, I don't know. And I'm saying, there's a bunch of stuff in here. Aren't you guys seeing it? And after we dug in and fixed the problem, this whole huge shift happened at their firm. Now all of a sudden they assigned two people to make sure everything that happens in Quilia makes sure it shows up in their case management software and they're super dedicated to making sure every client has it and that every client uses it because they've seen the value of the data that the clients are entering. Stuff they've never seen before. Like I can't even get into the details obviously for a lot of reasons, but stuff they'd never get normally on a case is coming through the app and they're saying, holy crap, we didn't even know this was even possible to understand how much this is impacting our clients. So, yeah, it's a good one. - Well, Kenny, thank you so much for stopping by. This has been an absolutely awesome conversation. If anybody out there, any law firm owners out there, anyone could use the services of you, of Quilia, how can the people find you in the app? - Yep, for sure. So if you go to Quilia.com and it's Quilia with 1LQUIA.com, you can learn all about us, hit the little request to demo button up in the top right corner and we'll jump on to demo and show you all about how this can impact your law firm. - Kenny, thank you so, so much for stopping and talking with us today. We really appreciate it. And thank you everyone for listening. This has been Partnerships for Profit, presented by LeDuke Entertainment. Kenny, thank you so much again. - Thank you. - Thanks for joining us on this episode of Partnerships for Profit. We hope you've gained valuable insights on how to form profitable partnerships and take your business to the next level. Be sure to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts so you never miss an episode. Got a partnership story to share or someone you'd like to see featured on the show? Reach out to us. Until next time, keep building those partnerships for profit.